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Want your voice to be heard? Submit a letter to the editor, send us an op-ed pitch or check out our open positions for the chance to be published by the Daily Utah Chronicle.
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Doctrine determines gender politics

Rory Penman.
Rory Penman.

It is interesting to see the two divergent paths The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church are taking with regards to their beliefs on gender, sex and sexuality. Philosophically, they remain almost identical, but in practice, they are nearly opposite.
Pope Francis made international news in a recent interview where he challenged the Catholic church’s previous emphasis on issues such as contraception and homosexuality and called for a change in focus — to more central doctrines such as love, healing and salvation.
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible,” Pope Francis said. “We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards.”
In response to the concern of homosexuality, Francis simply said: “Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person? We must always consider the person.”
The LDS church, on the other hand, has held firm to its conviction to speak out on sex and sexuality. In the most recent LDS General Conference, Apostles Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks firmly echoed the church’s positions on gay marriage and homosexuality. Other apostles discussed the role of women and what they saw as essential and defining gender differences.
This difference in direction between the LDS and Catholic churches is at first perplexing. Pope Francis has received resounding support for his change in focus, and 68 percent of U.S. Catholics firmly agree with this new emphasis, according to a Quinnipiac University poll. Tenants such as love, kindness and forgiveness — shared by both religions — are profoundly more accessible to believers and nonbelievers alike, and they do not require the same basis in faith and revelation involved in positions against gay marriage and female ordination. It might seem that the Catholic church’s new strategy with regards to these issues is significantly more promising. It emphasizes inclusion and love, rather than secularly unreachable doctrines.
But, upon closer examination, the LDS church simply cannot take the same approach as the Catholic church. Not because of stubbornness or obsession with certain issues, but because of certain metaphysical assumptions in LDS doctrine.
Love, kindness, salvation and forgiveness are undoubtedly the most important doctrines in both the LDS and Catholic churches, but issues of gender and sexuality play a significantly more prominent role in LDS doctrine than Catholic doctrine. LDS metaphysics postulates the existence of both a heavenly father and heavenly mother, each with different roles and responsibilities according to their gender. The Catholic church does not share this doctrine. LDS metaphysics also postulates the eternal existence of family, parenthood and procreation. Catholic doctrine remains silent on this concern.
These differences profoundly impact what each church can and cannot emphasize, and it has created a situation where the LDS church must continue to emphasize controversial topics only accessible through faith and revelation.
Current efforts by LDS memebers to change their church’s emphasis on these matters, or more drastically, to change their actual positions — as seen by various LGBT and feminist organizations within the church — fail to recognize these metaphysical assumptions in LDS doctrine. Homosexuality is not consistent with eternal male-female procreation, and female ordination is equally inconsistent with the role of the heavenly mother.
The LDS church will continue to preach gender roles and condemn same-sex marriage just like they will continue to preach love and forgiveness. They will do this because it is a part of their metaphysical explanation of the world and human purpose. A break from these views will disintegrate the very edifice in which the LDS doctrine stands.

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Comments (24)

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  • I

    Itso AshkeeOct 10, 2013 at 6:35 am

    I am a bi-sexual man. I also believe in God. I do not find that to be inherently contradictory. I find it ridiculous that some members of the LBGT community are offended that a church would believe that homosexual conduct is a sin. Of course it is. Every church that is based on the Torah, the Koran or the Bible believes that. That doesn’t bother me. All men are fallen. We are all sinners. Everyone sins, and our challenge is to find our way through this world while dealing with our own temptations. I have them, and I accept that. Basically, my view is, if you don’t like the doctrines of a particular church, then don’t join it. Join a different church. Go find one that you agree with. Or start your own. Or don’t join any of them. Nobody cares. Other than that, what you think about what they believe is nothing that anyone should care about.

    Reply
    • D

      DanielbmcOct 10, 2013 at 8:10 am

      You’re a bisexual man who believes that homosexual conduct is a sin? Be prepared for a sad future.

      Reply
      • C

        ColoradoRobOct 10, 2013 at 10:16 am

        Hooray Daniel! Way to try to doom and gloom someone into thinking the way you do! Manipulative peer-pressure – it’s not just for the right wing any more.

        Reply
        • D

          DanielbmcOct 10, 2013 at 10:35 am

          How is that dooming and glooming someone? If a person is gay (or bisexual) and is convinced that they are evil–that’s sad. I’m sorry if you think someone who thinks their sexual orientation is sinful isn’t in for years oftherapy, but you would be wrong. And one comment is “peer pressure”? You’ve led a sheltered life.

          Reply
          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 7:37 am

            You don’t understand how telling someone to “Be prepared for a sad future” might be interpreted as a wee bit of a downer Danielbmc?
            And where on earth did you get the notion that Itso is convinced he’s evil? He seems to explain his position pretty well – it’s not our leanings/tendencies/desires/urges that make us evil. Actions make us who we are. Not only that, but he speaks in terms of sin, not evil. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on what the LDS church actually has to teach about such things.
            I think you are just having a problem dealing with evidence that a bisexual guy can be happy in the LDS church. You need him to be unhappy in order for your worldview to not be shaken. I guess we’ll see which is more important – your worldview or the truth.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 8:07 am

            Of course it’s a downer–why would you think I meant it as anything other than a downer? A gay or bisexual man who believes that gay sex is a sin is in for a sad future. I don’t think anyone with any orientation other than strictly heterosexual is in for a fun time in the LDS church following strict gender roles.
            The church is opposed to any sex other than heterosexual sex in a marriage. Even if he has a good grasp on LDS teaching he’s not going to be happy if he has to deny his sexual feelings. The difference between sin and evil is the difference between dirt and filth.
            The LDS church is responsible for massive suffering of lesbian and gay people. If you deny that it’s you who has no grasp of the teachings of the church and their effect on GLBT people.
            I have no problem dealing with evidence–all the evidence I’ve seen shows that he is in for an unhappy future.
            And great job trying to straw man my argument. You’re a great LDS apologist.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 8:37 am

            “Even if he has a good grasp on LDS teaching he’s not going to be happy if he has to deny his sexual feelings.”
            It sounds like you’re saying nobody can be happy in the LDS church, since we’re all about mastering and channeling our sexual feelings, no matter what our orientation. Can’t have what you want when you want it = unhappy. I get it. I used to believe it. I’ve found it to not be true.
            And yet, you have two people standing right here and telling you we’re actually happy in such a system. Whatever will you do? Your mindset says wanna-but-shouldn’t = sad. And yet here you stand, facing people who are living lives you say we shouldn’t be able to live. What will you do? Sounds like you’ll just deny the proof standing in front of you, and tell us we’re not happy or not going to be happy.
            I’m less of an LDS apologist and more of an caller-out of ideologues wearing blinders that threaten their ideology. But if it helps you maintain your comfort zone by labeling me, I suppose you’ll do it.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 10:04 am

            Anyone with a noncormist sexual orientation–or actually, any nonconformist qualities is in for a rough time in the Mormon Church.
            I did not say nobody can be happy in the LDS church–more strawmanning from you. If you can’t represent me honesly don’t do it at all.
            What two happy people? Itso Ashkee didn’t sound all that happy and I have not evidence that you’re not a TB Mormon so it might very well fit right in to what you believe.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 11:19 am

            “Anyone with a nonconformist sexual orientation […] is in for a rough time in the Mormon Church.”
            Not sure how aware you are of the lives of GLBT folk, but the lives of those I’ve met tend to have some very rough spots in them no matter what their faith or where they live. And it is true, if you are a member of the chess club, but you don’t like chess and really wanna play checkers instead, you’re probably in for a rough time. But let me draw the distinction again between the orientation and the behavior. Folks with urges, who are off living lives where they control these urges and channel them, can be quite happy in the LDS church.
            “I have no problem dealing with evidence–all the evidence I’ve seen shows that he is in for an unhappy future.”
            Great – you’re open to evidence? Take a look at Josh Weed’s blog – a gay man and active mormon, married to a woman. Or Mitch Mayne – openly gay LDS. Both have taken the risk of becoming public figures for the sake of spreading the information that you can indeed be happy in the LDS church even if you are in posession of, as you call it, a “nonconformist sexual orientation”.
            BTW, how exactly does one bring one’s sexual orientation into conformity? I didn’t realize there was a choice involved…

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 11:57 am

            I am a GLBT folk and I was raised in the Mormon church. The lives of GLBT fold are rough because of the bigotry and persecution of people and organizations like the LDS church. The issues we have are compounded by being involved in something like the church. I’ve known too many gay and lesbian people in the LDS church who married and it’s almost always ended in horrible situations.
            I’ve seen Josh Weed’s videos and even he says gay people shouldn’t follow his example. The fact that you brought up two bisexual men who are making a living by being bisexual Mormons (yes, Josh says he’s gay, but he’s actually bisexual) in heterosexual marriages does nothing to assuage the vast numbers of these relationships that end in divorce and broken families. A gay man or a bisexual man on the higher end of the Kinsey scale is making a horrible mistake by entering a heterosexual marriage. The only other option for these people in the church is abstinence which will also not make anyone happy.
            Also, both of those men are living heterosexual (conformist) lives. And I am not convinced they’re happy or that they’ll stay happy over the years to come. The fact that they’ve gone public will just add more pressure and cause more stress.
            And when did I say anyone had a choice? You’re really into the strawmanning. I didn’t say one should bring their sexual orientation into conformity–but the church has said that exact thing for decades.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 12:22 pm

            “I have no problem dealing with evidence”
            “And I am not convinced they’re happy”
            Not really anything else to say here, Danielbmc, other than to wish you a full and happy life.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm

            Considering the number of Mormon women who say they are happy and yet have to use anti-depressant drugs I am not convinced any Mormons are really happy. If you take it at their word, fine, but the evidence says otherwise.
            I am having a full and happy life as an out gay man who is marrying his partner of 12 years now that the LDS sponsored Proposition 8 was found unconstitutional.
            You be happy too in whatever it is you think you’re doing.
            And please, try to learn to do this without misrepresenting the claims of other people–it just makes you look not too bright.

  • I

    Itso AshkeeOct 10, 2013 at 6:35 am

    I am a bi-sexual man. I also believe in God. I do not find that to be inherently contradictory. I find it ridiculous that some members of the LBGT community are offended that a church would believe that homosexual conduct is a sin. Of course it is. Every church that is based on the Torah, the Koran or the Bible believes that. That doesn’t bother me. All men are fallen. We are all sinners. Everyone sins, and our challenge is to find our way through this world while dealing with our own temptations. I have them, and I accept that. Basically, my view is, if you don’t like the doctrines of a particular church, then don’t join it. Join a different church. Go find one that you agree with. Or start your own. Or don’t join any of them. Nobody cares. Other than that, what you think about what they believe is nothing that anyone should care about.

    Reply
    • D

      DanielbmcOct 10, 2013 at 8:10 am

      You’re a bisexual man who believes that homosexual conduct is a sin? Be prepared for a sad future.

      Reply
      • C

        ColoradoRobOct 10, 2013 at 10:16 am

        Hooray Daniel! Way to try to doom and gloom someone into thinking the way you do! Manipulative peer-pressure – it’s not just for the right wing any more.

        Reply
        • D

          DanielbmcOct 10, 2013 at 10:35 am

          How is that dooming and glooming someone? If a person is gay (or bisexual) and is convinced that they are evil–that’s sad. I’m sorry if you think someone who thinks their sexual orientation is sinful isn’t in for years oftherapy, but you would be wrong. And one comment is “peer pressure”? You’ve led a sheltered life.

          Reply
          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 7:37 am

            You don’t understand how telling someone to “Be prepared for a sad future” might be interpreted as a wee bit of a downer Danielbmc?

            And where on earth did you get the notion that Itso is convinced he’s evil? He seems to explain his position pretty well – it’s not our leanings/tendencies/desires/urges that make us evil. Actions make us who we are. Not only that, but he speaks in terms of sin, not evil. He seems to have a pretty good grasp on what the LDS church actually has to teach about such things.

            I think you are just having a problem dealing with evidence that a bisexual guy can be happy in the LDS church. You need him to be unhappy in order for your worldview to not be shaken. I guess we’ll see which is more important – your worldview or the truth.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 8:07 am

            Of course it’s a downer–why would you think I meant it as anything other than a downer? A gay or bisexual man who believes that gay sex is a sin is in for a sad future. I don’t think anyone with any orientation other than strictly heterosexual is in for a fun time in the LDS church following strict gender roles.
            The church is opposed to any sex other than heterosexual sex in a marriage. Even if he has a good grasp on LDS teaching he’s not going to be happy if he has to deny his sexual feelings. The difference between sin and evil is the difference between dirt and filth.
            The LDS church is responsible for massive suffering of lesbian and gay people. If you deny that it’s you who has no grasp of the teachings of the church and their effect on GLBT people.
            I have no problem dealing with evidence–all the evidence I’ve seen shows that he is in for an unhappy future.
            And great job trying to straw man my argument. You’re a great LDS apologist.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 8:37 am

            “Even if he has a good grasp on LDS teaching he’s not going to be happy if he has to deny his sexual feelings.”

            It sounds like you’re saying nobody can be happy in the LDS church, since we’re all about mastering and channeling our sexual feelings, no matter what our orientation. Can’t have what you want when you want it = unhappy. I get it. I used to believe it. I’ve found it to not be true.

            And yet, you have two people standing right here and telling you we’re actually happy in such a system. Whatever will you do? Your mindset says wanna-but-shouldn’t = sad. And yet here you stand, facing people who are living lives you say we shouldn’t be able to live. What will you do? Sounds like you’ll just deny the proof standing in front of you, and tell us we’re not happy or not going to be happy.

            I’m less of an LDS apologist and more of an caller-out of ideologues wearing blinders that threaten their ideology. But if it helps you maintain your comfort zone by labeling me, I suppose you’ll do it.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 10:04 am

            Anyone with a noncormist sexual orientation–or actually, any nonconformist qualities is in for a rough time in the Mormon Church.
            I did not say nobody can be happy in the LDS church–more strawmanning from you. If you can’t represent me honesly don’t do it at all.
            What two happy people? Itso Ashkee didn’t sound all that happy and I have not evidence that you’re not a TB Mormon so it might very well fit right in to what you believe.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 11:19 am

            “Anyone with a nonconformist sexual orientation […] is in for a rough time in the Mormon Church.”

            Not sure how aware you are of the lives of GLBT folk, but the lives of those I’ve met tend to have some very rough spots in them no matter what their faith or where they live. And it is true, if you are a member of the chess club, but you don’t like chess and really wanna play checkers instead, you’re probably in for a rough time. But let me draw the distinction again between the orientation and the behavior. Folks with urges, who are off living lives where they control these urges and channel them, can be quite happy in the LDS church.

            “I have no problem dealing with evidence–all the evidence I’ve seen shows that he is in for an unhappy future.”

            Great – you’re open to evidence? Take a look at Josh Weed’s blog – a gay man and active mormon, married to a woman. Or Mitch Mayne – openly gay LDS. Both have taken the risk of becoming public figures for the sake of spreading the information that you can indeed be happy in the LDS church even if you are in posession of, as you call it, a “nonconformist sexual orientation”.

            BTW, how exactly does one bring one’s sexual orientation into conformity? I didn’t realize there was a choice involved…

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 11:57 am

            I am a GLBT folk and I was raised in the Mormon church. The lives of GLBT fold are rough because of the bigotry and persecution of people and organizations like the LDS church. The issues we have are compounded by being involved in something like the church. I’ve known too many gay and lesbian people in the LDS church who married and it’s almost always ended in horrible situations.
            I’ve seen Josh Weed’s videos and even he says gay people shouldn’t follow his example. The fact that you brought up two bisexual men who are making a living by being bisexual Mormons (yes, Josh says he’s gay, but he’s actually bisexual) in heterosexual marriages does nothing to assuage the vast numbers of these relationships that end in divorce and broken families. A gay man or a bisexual man on the higher end of the Kinsey scale is making a horrible mistake by entering a heterosexual marriage. The only other option for these people in the church is abstinence which will also not make anyone happy.
            Also, both of those men are living heterosexual (conformist) lives. And I am not convinced they’re happy or that they’ll stay happy over the years to come. The fact that they’ve gone public will just add more pressure and cause more stress.
            And when did I say anyone had a choice? You’re really into the strawmanning. I didn’t say one should bring their sexual orientation into conformity–but the church has said that exact thing for decades.

          • C

            ColoradoRobOct 11, 2013 at 12:22 pm

            “I have no problem dealing with evidence”

            “And I am not convinced they’re happy”

            Not really anything else to say here, Danielbmc, other than to wish you a full and happy life.

          • D

            DanielbmcOct 11, 2013 at 1:25 pm

            Considering the number of Mormon women who say they are happy and yet have to use anti-depressant drugs I am not convinced any Mormons are really happy. If you take it at their word, fine, but the evidence says otherwise.
            I am having a full and happy life as an out gay man who is marrying his partner of 12 years now that the LDS sponsored Proposition 8 was found unconstitutional.
            You be happy too in whatever it is you think you’re doing.
            And please, try to learn to do this without misrepresenting the claims of other people–it just makes you look not too bright.