Welcome to Big Emotions, the show dissecting emotion, art and everything in between!  In this first installment, we’ll be talking about the big bad in relationships: breakups! How do people get through breakups? What kind of strange art can we relate to in these troubling times to get us through? Join host Luke Jackson, co-host Eliza Delgado and producer Eugene Lyons as they attempt to navigate the tumultuous world of ending relationships.

Luke: Hello! My name is Luke Jackson. I’m the current arts desk editor here at the Chrony. And this is Big Emotions, our new arts desk podcast! And we’re super excited to be here. I’m here with our amazing co-host and producer who I will let introduce themselves.

Eliza: Hey, my name is Eliza and I am the assistant arts editor. Yeah! That’s me.

Eugene: And I am Eugene. I’m a first year and I am the arts producer.

Luke: Awesome. It’s so wonderful to have you both here. I’m really excited to hop in today. Before we jump into, I guess our specific emotion today, I kind of just wanted to introduce what the idea for the show is. And it all kind of stemmed from a quote by Ethan Hawke. Ethan Hawke isn’t necessarily the person that I’d go to for wisdom. But he happened to be particularly poignant in this TED talk called “Give Yourself Permission to be Creative.” And so I’m just going to read the little quote that he had here. He said, “Most people don’t spend a lot of time thinking about poetry. They have a life to live and they’re not really that concerned with Allen Ginsberg‘s poems or anybody’s poems. That’s until their father dies, or they go to a funeral, or you lose a child, or somebody breaks your heart, or they don’t love you anymore. And all of a sudden, you’re desperate to make sense out of this life. And you’re asking yourself, has anybody ever felt this bad before? How did they come out of this cloud?” And so I was really fascinated by this point that Hawke makes about art articulating and making sense out of these huge emotions that often sneak up on us and how we kind of rely on art to pull us through them sometimes. And so the purpose of this whole podcast is to explore those emotions and the art that helps us understand and get through them. And so first, we thought it would be fun to focus in on heartbreak, specifically breakups, which I mean is pretty rich, in terms of media that is created for that emotion, because so much creativity often stems from breakups. So before we dive into the art that has helped us through those breakups, let’s talk about breakups themselves and our personal experiences with them. Rumor has it that you have some juicy breakup stories.

Eugene: That is — that is in fact true.

Luke: And so let’s dive into those.

Eliza: Okay, so well, I was kind of in a situationship a few years ago, this was actually in —

Luke: Define situationship.

Eliza: It’s like a relationship, but you’re not really committed to the person. Like, you like each other, and it’s there, but you’re not committed to that person. So you still have, like, the option to explore other people or to see other people.

Luke: Feels very modern.

Eliza: Yeah, that’s what dating is nowadays, I feel like. But, so yeah, it was my senior year of high school. And there was — he was like, one of my best friends and I had feelings for him. And I had told him that and he had told me he had feelings for me too. But he never wanted to commit. And so it was this — my whole senior year, it was just — because I’m a very loyal person. So all my attention was always going to him. It was never — I was never interested in any other guy. But for him, it wasn’t like that. He was seeing other girls and going out with other girls. It just was kind of complicated.

Luke: Devastating.

Eliza: Yeah, and so it really hurt my feelings towards the end of my senior year, and it made me kind of made my feelings go more from sadness, to anger and more upset. So I remember there was like a summer fair. And we had gone to that with like a group of friends. And it was at this point where like, COVID had hit already. And so people were wearing masks — we hadn’t seen each other for a few weeks. And so when we were going out, I was angry, like, I didn’t want to see him. I didn’t want to talk to him. But obviously, we’re in the same friend group. And I remember he had played this one fair game, and he won like a small teddy bear. And he gave the teddy bear to me, and I was so upset, I was like, “I don’t want this,” and I threw it in the trash and just walked away. So yeah, it was really bad.

Luke: That’s not so — I feel like that’s pretty warranted.

Eliza: I mean, my emotions throughout the year, I guess, was what made it so bad. So I was just so angry. But yeah, I mean —

Luke: And that was the end.

Eliza: That was the end. He went on a mission. I never talked to him again after that. I didn’t want to keep up with him. And yeah.

Luke: And that teddy bear still sits at bottom of the trash.

Eliza: It does.

Luke: When I was thinking about breakups, I’m a pretty … I’m a pretty emotional guy. And I’m lucky, I’m married now and I’ve been married for three years. And so I don’t know really have to worry about dating and breakups, which is —

Eliza: You’re lucky.

Luke: — super, super nice. Yeah, I can’t recommend marriage enough. If it works out, go for it. But so I’m also going back to the treasure trove of high school for big emotional breakups. And I remember, right when I graduated high school, I didn’t know what I was going to do. And I planned on coming to Utah — I’m from Canada originally. I had gotten into UVU, and I was planning on going there. And my girlfriend at the time was going to school in Toronto — she had got into a school down there. And so she convinced me to go with her. So I went and did a semester of school at York University, in Toronto. And so I was down there with my girlfriend right after high school. And the first — I’m sure you can attest to this, Eugene — the first couple of weeks of university, your very first freshman year are tough. It’s a different adjustment. It’s something you have to get used to. And you don’t have — a lot of the times — kind of a friend group that’s been established, and I was in a brand new place that I’d never been. And so I really relied on my girlfriend at this time. And about two weeks in, she called me over and broke up with me. She called me over to her house and I was about an hour train ride. And so I remember being in her house just sobbing.

Eliza: Oh my god.

Luke: And I was just sobbing. And I walked — she just like, whatever, broke up with me. And I went into the hallway. And I, like, remember putting my hand by the elevator and just like losing it. And I called one of my friends who’s actually my now-wife, which so again, it worked out. It worked out, okay. And I was just like, “I don’t know what to do. My life is over!” and whatever. She was like, “just breathe,” whatever. And so I made it through, I was able to make it out of her apartment building with like, some sense of dignity even though like, you know what I mean? Snot on my face. It was a juicy experience. And I went into the subway to take the train home. And on the train, I just remember breaking down again. So I was, for sure, that dude that you see just absolutely a mess on the subway, on the train. So breakups are never fun. But what we’re going to talk about today is how we got through those breakups and how, essentially, breakups do lead to good things. But they’re hard to get through. So let’s dive right into sort of the art that we’ve used to help us understand and get through breakups. And let’s start with you, Eliza.

Eliza: Okay, so I had recently broken up with my ex-boyfriend a few months ago, now, it’s been a few months. But during this time… I feel like a lot of breakup, a lot about breakup culture is from the point of view of the person being broken up. So I feel like people don’t really talk about breaking the other person’s heart.

Luke: Being the dumper instead of the dumpee.

Eliza: Yeah. And so, like, obviously, I’ve had my heart broken in past situations, but like, I’ve never been the one to break someone else’s heart. And so it was very difficult for me to like, break up with my ex, and try to get through that, because it’s such a different type of pain, because you love this person, and you’re seeing them so hurt.

Luke: And I’m sure because of that culture, too, you kind of vilify yourself. How could you not?

Eliza: Yeah, and so I had to — I had such a hard time dealing with that. Because, you know, you feel like the bad guy for a minute. And it’s like, I’ve never dealt with those emotions before. But there was this one song that was getting me through the breakup. And it’s called “Best” by Gracie Abrams. And she talks about being in that point of view, being the one breaking that person’s heart. And there was just these lyrics that — it’s so devastating, but it’s so true. But she sings a few lines, and she says, “I had destroyed every single silver lining you had in your head, all your feelings I played with them.” And I don’t know, that song is so catchy, but it just resonated a lot.

Luke: Absolutely. How could it not? Yeah, I think there’s something to that, right, this idea of kind of good memories turning sour, almost, or whatever, people becoming strangers. And one of the songs that — I mean, I’ve never, I guess particularly used this song to get through a breakup because you know, [it came out] a couple months ago. But it kind of has articulated that feeling where you do feel like these memories are strange. And you kind of become a stranger in them because you’re now the person who ended that relationship. And so the song that I’ve really resonated with recently is called “Unknown/Nth.” It’s by Hozier, and it just came out on his recent album. He talked about a little bit how it is about this betrayal and how this person becomes unknown and how you can even kind of become unknown in your memories of your relationship and then “Nth” is kind of, like, I don’t even — you know the term like “umpteenth”?

Eliza: Yeah.

Luke:  It’s like, it’s not real, but it’s a lot. It’s just kind of that where it’s just you’ve specifically this situation is about being. So it’s, I guess it’s not super, exactly the same what you’re talking about Eliza, but it’s about being betrayed or being cheated on. So he’s from the position of the dumpee. But it still has that same sort of feeling of like, “Who am I? What is this? What does this mean?” And I think Hozier, kind of like Gracie Abrams, actually, they have these very soulful, raw voices almost. Where they can capture profound sadness, in a way that’s really amazing. Yeah, I think it’s truly, truly fantastic. And so this “Unknown” song, there’s some lyrics in there, too, that just like blew me away. They’re so poetic. One of them is, “If there were Scarlet flags, they washed down in the mind of me,” which I think is kind of beautiful.

Eliza: It is.

Luke:  And again, in your relationship, Eliza, I’m sure as that ended you — I don’t know — you kind of get goggles, right? Like rose-colored goggles when you’re breaking up with someone and you’re like, “Oh, was it all so bad?” And those things that maybe are red flags — and maybe red flags is the wrong term, I think it kind of has a really negative connotation, but I don’t know a red flag in a relationship is, can just mean something like, “Okay, this isn’t gonna work.” Whatever that means, right? And the fact that we kind of do turn them scarlet, or they kind of meld into white, being like, it’s fine. I can get past that because of your love for this person. So I think I commend you for breaking up with them, because that’s just hard. It’s hard to do. It’s hard to do what’s right for yourself.

Eliza: Yeah, it really is. Especially when you really do love the person. It’s — it just makes it harder. For the both of you.

Luke: And in Hozier’s song? He hits this one part, right in the chorus. And the lyric is, “Do you know, I could break beneath the weight of the goodness, love I still carry for you.” Which I think is especially pertinent because — maybe I should ask a question. Have you guys been cheated on before?

Eliza: No, I have not.

Eugene: Yes.

Luke: Doesn’t feel good.

Eugene: No.

Luke: No, it’s not — it’s not an awesome experience.

Eliza: Have you?

Luke: I have, yeah.

Eliza: Oh my god.

Luke: It’s not a great experience. And — but it’s strange, because this person will come to you. And I didn’t — I don’t know, my experience wasn’t super, lik, villainous, right? I didn’t walk in late at night when I was supposed to be on a business trip and catch my — you know what I mean? It was, it was very much just like, my girlfriend at the time just was like, “Hey, this happened.” And it’s a weird experience, because that piece of information does change who they are. Because you’re like, “Oh, well, who are you then?” like, I thought I trusted you, whatever. But at the same time, you still have all that love for them. Which is weird. It’s a weird dichotomy of experiences and feelings all at once and just like, Hozier’s able to — I don’t know — carry that — carry that all in one way. “Do you know I could still break beneath the weight of the goodness, love, I still carry for you” where it’s still all there. And even though at this point, you’re kind of like “Well, screw you. You cheated on me,” it’s just it’s hard to balance the love you still have for that person.

Eliza: It becomes tainted a bit, which, I don’t know, I’ve never experienced that.

Luke: I hope you don’t. I would not recommend it. I guess there’s a lot of growth and I don’t know, I’m sure if you’ve been cheated on there — there is a lot of media you can create. I mean, look at, look at Olivia Rodrigo. Look at Taylor Swift. These people … And just- I also think we’d be remiss to talk about breakups and not talk about both Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo, who are kind of …

Eliza: I love both of them.

Luke: Yeah! Right? Like, Olivia — and again, I’m married so I’m kind of distant from what Olivia Rodrigo’s singing about, but, man, does she ever get what it’s like to be a teenage girl.

Eliza: Exactly! She just captures like, being young and in a relationship so well.

Luke: And just angst. But, Eliza, I know that you are particularly fond of a certain Taylor Swift song.

Eliza: Yes. So… I mean, I feel like there was a time when Taylor Swift’s Red album, like, Taylor’s version came out a few years ago. The “All Too Well” song became so big and so popular and it just — I remember just being on TikTok or reading something online and it just connected a lot of people because it was so real of the song, the lyrics, the feeling. And then when the music video came out, it was just even more devastating.

Luke: This is the one with Sadie Sink and Dylan O’Brien.

Eliza: Yeah. I just I went and saw her Eras Tour film a few weeks ago, during the break. And when she was singing that song, it was just so emotional because I’m still getting over, like, this breakup, and it’s like all these memories are still present and you just remember it all and … you just remember it. Everything!

Luke: All too well, even.

Eliza: All too well! Yeah! But yeah, I just think that’s a very good form of media of representing breakups so well, especially when you’re so young and you’re a girl, and it’s like, you put everything into this relationship, and it’s not reciprocated. I think she just demonstrated that very well.

Luke: And there’s something about I guess songs specifically as an artistic medium that I think capture breakups for a majority of people, better than most art. I think … I don’t know what it is about it. Well, maybe it’s just because it’s something you can cry to or scream-sing? And just stuff that just gets it out of you and really highlights emotions. I put one that I brought — which everyone has probably heard — is “Gives You Hell” by The All-American Rejects. It’s such a dumb song, and it’s such an even … I feel like a cliché song. I had a friend who when his mom got divorced — and she got divorced in her late 40s — would scream-sing this song. Windows down, right? Because it’s just, there’s something to the “Screw you. I’m an independent woman. I don’t need anybody!’ attitude that songs can bring. And again, I feel like Olivia Rodrigo hits that a lot. Where it kind of is both — well, “All Too Well” I guess is kinda on the other side of that spectrum. Where you have sort of the “Screw you!” like, “I don’t need anybody!” songs. And then these more — I guess they’re both poetic in their own right. But I feel like maybe a little more poetic, deep, exploring —

Eliza: It’s more intimate. These feelings that come out — and the memories, because it’s a lot about just remembering everything.

Luke: Dwelling on it, because I think — again, dwelling on it maybe doesn’t have the best connotation. But there’s something to growing and learning from a relationship.

Eliza: I think so.

Luke: And then moving forward, obviously, is important. Moving away from songs, there’s one movie that I really wanted to talk about that I absolutely love. It came out this year as well. It’s called “Past Lives.” It came out at Sundance, and I was lucky enough to see it there. And then when it came out in theaters, I got to see it. I saw it twice in one week, because it’s, it’s that movie that you see, and you immediately want to share it with someone else. And so I just happened to have a few people who came into town and they’re like “Well, let’s go see a movie!” and it — again, it just happened to be in theaters, but it’s the kind of movie that’s like, it’s great for a summer evening, it’s great for a rainy day. It’s just kind of like the perfect movie. It’s really good. If you’re listening to this, and you haven’t watched it, turn it off and go watch that movie right now. Because it’s fantastic. And it kind of explores that … both feelings of these relationships that don’t happen, or these relationships that end and, kind of, the separate paths that you take afterwards. The movie specifically is about, it’s about — it follows a immigrant from Korea, who moves to Canada and then New York to be a writer. And when she leaves Korea, she was very young, I think probably 12. And she — it’s not a true story. Or it’s not advertised as a true story. But there’s — it seems like there’s truth in it. Anyways, so when she leaves, there’s this boy that she goes on a date with when she’s like, 12. And they’re best friends and they leave and then reconnect in their — in their late 20s. And then that doesn’t work out. And then he comes to visit her in New York when she’s like, 30. So it’s just kind of, like — it’s maybe less of a breakup movie and more of a “the one who got away” kind of movie. But it really articulates how I’ve mourned relationships in the past, right? And I think we all have breakup stories and stories where our heart was broken, or something didn’t work out. And that’s the, that’s the feeling that this movie brings is it’s just — these things didn’t work out. Yeah, for whatever reason. It doesn’t have to be because we never had the time to date. Or it could be because you got cheated on by someone or because of whatever. But we all have those memories and those stories of those people that we were in those relationships, and who used to be and the people that we are now, right? And I think this movie does a really amazing job of kind of reflecting on those past lives, those past memories of who we were, and mourning those people. Because every relationship that doesn’t work out is like a version of yourself that will never come to fruition. Right? Which is interesting to think about. And there’s something kind of beautiful in mourning that person in mourning who you could have been, and mourning who you’re not, even if where you are now is ultimately better. Which it usually is because, I’m a firm believer that wherever you are today is where you’re supposed to be. For … I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s fate or whatever. But yeah, you know what I mean? We’re in these situations because of our choices, and that’s great. And reflecting on who we were to get there I think is also important. And so, this movie just really elegantly, and gently captures those complex feelings. And so it really hits this note of like, yeah, breakups are sad. But like, can they also be happy? Can we also like, grow and develop from them? Which is a question that I think is really interesting. And it’s maybe only easy to think about after the breakup is — I don’t know — passed a little bit?

Eliza: I think, when you’ve given yourself a bit more time, I think — but I think that’s so true. Like you kind of mourn — you mourn yourself from that past relationship more than the relationship itself, I feel like. I feel like I’ve found myself dealing with that a lot in the past because it could have been, like, you meet these people who bring like, certain, like, aspects or like things out of you that you didn’t even think about yourself. And so to like, lose that with that person is just so devastating, in a way. But I need to watch that movie.

Luke: It’s great. I think I think everyone should. It’s, yeah, it’s fantastic.

Eugene: What is it called again?

Luke: “Past Lives.” It came out this year, directed by Celine Song. It’s her directorial debut, which is — makes the movie all the more impressive. It’s not streaming anywhere, but it’s like, five bucks on Amazon. Best five bucks you’re ever gonna spend because it’s a great movie. But with that, it kind of reminded me of one of the movies that we kind of talked about before we started recording, Eliza, which is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Do you want to speak about that movie a little bit?

Eliza: Yeah! So, it has Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet.

Luke: Yes.

Eliza: It’s just this couple who — I can’t remember who breaks up with who. Wasn’t it Clementine?

Luke: Seems kind of like a mutual …

Eliza: A mutual breakup?

Luke: … the relationship was not in a good place.

Eliza: So they were struggling and they break up, and they go their own ways, I think. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movie. But basically, the whole point of the movie is — they go to this one treatment to forget about this breakup. And it’s been a treatment for — for people around … I don’t know.

Luke: You can, you can completely erase somebody from your life. All your memories and all of everything.

Eliza: And so I found that movie, especially like this one scene, very sad. But like, also, I don’t know. It’s very sad. But like, there’s this one scene where like, Jim Carrey goes and sees Kate’s character. And like, she had already like, taken the, like, the procedure or the medicine, whatever, he was starting the procedure as well, because he was upset with her for doing that. But there was like this one scene where she was like, at the bookstore, because she worked at the bookstore. And he was basically trying to ask her out again, and she was like, being like, ‘Oh, if you want to be with me, like, it’s not for anything because of you like, you have to, like, want to be with me, you know?’ And he was just saying, like, ‘I remember this conversation, like, I remember that’ and, but what was so interesting is like, around like, during that scene, and like when they were talking, you can kind of see like, he’s slowly forgetting, like, the memories as well, because like, the books in the background are like starting to fade into all white. And he’s so focused on Kate Winslet’s character that he doesn’t realize, like, what’s going on around him. I think that scene is so like, I think it’s very meaningful, like, comparing it to breakups, because I think you get so lost in, like, the devastating emotions of being in a breakup that you don’t realize all the other good things around you or like, you’re so focused on this, like on this person or this breakup, that you don’t realize that you’re losing yourself within your, like with this breakup, you know?

Luke: No, I totally agree. Yeah, is something because it’s such an intense moment. And I feel like again, because of breakup culture, and because of media, we want sort of there to be this drama, right? Like you kind of crave that drama, especially in the breakup where we want it to be this big ‘screw you’ moment. Like, ‘I don’t love you anymore.’

Eliza: Yeah. Right.

Luke: Because then it’s easier to be angry than it is to be sad. I agree that “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” really hits that note of kind of like because it does it goes through — it’s Joel and Clementine are the two characters. It goes through their relationship in reverse. We start with the last time they saw each other and moved first time they met. And Jim Carrey’s character is losing it. Yeah, as he goes, and he realizes that he doesn’t want to forget all this.

Eliza: Yes.

Luke: And I think it begs an interesting question, because the movie ends in kind of an interesting way and — spoilers if you’ve yet to see the movie. It’s almost 20 years old. So I mean, it’s not really spoilers.

Eliza: Yeah

Luke: If you haven’t seen it grow up, I guess. Sorry, Eugene. But it ends with this moment where they do completely forget each other. Yeah. But then they meet kind of by chance, and they like each other and have this initial connection — as two people who don’t know each other.

Eliza: Yeah.

Luke: And then because of something that happens with the procedure, all of the memories get like leaked back to the people. And so they’re listening to these tapes of themselves going through the memories, about all of the things they hate about that person, all the reasons they wanted to forget. And movie ends with them kind of getting back together.

Eliza: Yeah.

Luke: And trying again, which I think is interesting, because I don’t know. It begs the question to me, if you forgot your exes, and you met them again, do you think you would date them again?

Eliza: I — knowing me, I think I would.

Luke: You think you would?

Eliza: I think so.

Luke: Yes. Speak on that, like what is it? Just, forgetting the bad stuff makes the good stuff come to the surface, maybe?

Eliza: Yeah, I think so. Because like, you remember all like the good feelings, the good memories, like the way that person made you feel. And it’s like, what if I never find that again? It’s like, you know, what, if I don’t feel that connection with anyone else? Yeah, I think I would. But also, it depends on like, which ex it is, too.

Luke: Okay well, follow-up question. If you could take that procedure where you forget your ex completely. Would you do it?

Eliza: I don’t think so. Would you?

Luke: I don’t think so either. I don’t. Because, again, it’s it’s been it’s been years since I’ve had a major breakup. But I think again, this “Past Lives” movie really hits on this because of those experiences, even though a lot of them weren’t awesome. Right? Like, like I’ve been cheated on. And it’s like, I’ve been in like pretty bad fights with people. And there’s a lot of hard things about being in relationship. Right. And even through those bad things. It’s just there’s a growth that comes that I feel like forgetting about that growth and those bad things, you’re also losing good things. But then you’re also losing progression. And again, that’s why I think this I’m so curious what everyone’s thoughts are about the end of this movie, if it is like a movie about two people who are meant to be together, or a movie about to like codependent, sick people who get kind of trapped together, because like, they forgot all of the growth they went through.

Eliza: Yeah.

Luke: Because aren’t they just gonna do the same thing over again? Maybe they won’t? Yeah, you could. But it’s an interesting question.

Eliza: Yeah, you could always learn from it. But sometimes it’s just, it’s, there’s really no going back at that point.

Luke: No, that’s a good point.

Eliza: Yeah.

Luke: But that was sort of our discussion on breakups, and those — that Big Emotion. And again, there’s so much that we’ve missed, there’s so many amazing songs and poetry and we didn’t even talk about any of we didn’t talk about poetry or books at all, right. But there are so many great things. And I think that’s the fun thing about this podcast and hopefully the things that we get to explore is the different people that we are going to talk to and the different writers that we bring on. Everyone’s gonna have their own art to get them through. Because, like we talked about, we’re lucky enough to live in a world where there are artists for different disciplines. Yeah, there are people who go through a breakup and channel that energy into creation. Which is kind of amazing. And I think that’s also an aspect of breakups that can be positive is it gives you this big ball of emotion that you can channel into something. Yeah. Right. And again, there’s so much great work. And I think this is such a rich tapestry for art, because it’s such a universal experience. And it’s a very powerful experience.

Eliza: Oh, yes, I think so you have so much energy and you can transform that energy into something so beautiful or so heartbreaking or something that can make people like connect with you as well. You’re not alone is — you’re never alone.

Luke: Awesome. Well, thank you, Eliza. And thanks, Eugene. It’s been super fun to talk to you guys and we will see you next time next time we do this. Yeah. Awesome.

Unison: Bye!