Transcript 

Emma Ratkovic: Hello and welcome back to Uncovered, The Daily Utah Chronicle’s investigative podcast. I’m your host, Emma Ratkovic. The investigative podcast will delve deeper into investigative stories written by students on the Chrony at the U. On today’s episode of the podcast, we are going to discuss Caroline Krum’s recent print story on queerness at the U. Hi, Caroline, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Caroline Krum: Thank you for having me.

Emma Ratkovic : Caroline, can you introduce yourself and explain what you do for the Chrony?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, so I write for the investigative desk. And a lot of what I do is looking into more investigative stories. So kind of taking what news does, but going into the how this happened, why this happened and what the results are and looking at a comprehensive research of things.

Emma Ratkovic: Very interesting. And you recently shared that the U was named as one of the top LGBTQ+ friendly campuses in the U.S. for the 2018-2019 academic year, because of its affirmative statements, LGBT Resource Center, inclusive housing and mental health resources. Some queer students however, believe that this isn’t representative of their experiences. For your story, 67 U employees, instructors and students who identify as LGBTQ+ submitted a survey on their opinions of the university’s resources and policies, as well as their sense of safety on campus. You talked about how one of the survey’s biggest findings was that a number of members of the LGBTQ+ community felt uncomfortable expressing their gender identity or sexual orientation in public. Could you elaborate on the findings of the survey statistics pertaining to this issue?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, so with this survey, we asked a bunch of different questions. But then we also ask students about their sexuality, their gender identity, and other parts of their identity that they would want to respond to. And so then we broke it down into those categories, right, what each different category said. And overall, what we found was that of queer students as a whole, around 50% of them said that they did not feel safe engaging in PDA – specifically with a partner of the same sex, which is pretty concerning when you take that into account for that means that one out of every two queer students feels uncomfortable being able to show that they are in a relationship, specifically in a queer relationship. And so this comes down to things like hugging, kissing or even just holding hands. And this was a big difference between queer students and straight students, who felt more comfortable being able to engage in PDA behavior on campus.

Emma Ratkovic: And in the survey, one student wrote about how they were scared of experiencing anything from safety threats with physical violence and intimidation to subtle things like microaggressions due to how they identify. What steps has the U take to ensure that all students and staff feel safe while on campus?

Caroline Krum: The U’s done a couple [of] different things. One of them is that the U has a specific team for hate bias, racism and any other kind of incidents like that. And so students can report an issue there. And that is supposed to help get that issue resolved. If there’s things that are put up that are offensive, things that are going on that are targeting a specific group, they’re supposed to reach out to them specifically. But when it comes to physical safety, there’s also a couple of different things. One is the U has their own campus security and campus police that students can call if they feel unsafe, the U also has SafeRide, which operates during the week, I think it’s still 6:30 [p.m.] to 12:30 am. But if students don’t feel comfortable walking around campus alone, or if they worried that something’s going to happen, they can have the campus’ Safe U drive them. It’s like little little cars, little buses that can take them to different locations so they don’t have to walk around by themselves. So yeah, a couple different things that help students have those options in case saying they feel like they’re in danger.

Emma Ratkovic: And on a scale of one to five, where five is very difficult, queer and straight students were asked to rate how easy it was for them to find friends who share their sexual orientation, what conclusions did you reach?

Caroline Krum: So again, we broke it down into different categories. So for trans students, the most common answer that they chose was two on a scale of one to five for difficulty, right? But then for non-binary students, the most common answer was four. And these are both very different from cisgender students, and their most common answer was one, which really demonstrates that for cisgender students, it’s pretty easy to be able to make friends and have relationships with people of their same sexual orientation. But for people who are trans or non-binary, or just in general non-gender conforming, they have a bit of a harder time doing this, but when we asked queer students just as a whole in general, so including all sexualities, meaning even people who are cisgender, but still are bisexual or lesbian or aromantic their answer was four.

Emma Ratkovic: Students were asked to rank how easy it was for them to meet friends who identified as the same gender on the same scale. On the scale, they were also asked how simple it is to locate love or sexual partners who share their sexual preferences. What were your findings?

Caroline Krum: So for this question, when we asked specifically about romantic interactions, queer students said their most common answer was three, which is pretty good because it meant that it wasn’t too hard to find romantic partners or that it wasn’t too easy. But one thing that some queer students said later on in their suggestions for what you could do better is that they wish the LGBTQ Resource Center would have some kind of speed dating, mixer kind of activities just so it would make it easier on them. Because it is easier for straight students since that is assumed as the default. So a three isn’t the worst, but it certainly has a lot of room to be better.

Emma Ratkovic: One respondent stated that the LGBT community has a lot of concerns about the usage and respect of pronouns and transgender students. Reflecting the group’s general concern for its transgender members, another responder expressed their want to see gender-neutral restrooms introduced in order to feel more at ease in areas of campus such as the Student Life Center, the transgender student expressed that they would like to make more friends that share their identity. What actions can the U take to guarantee that faculty staff and students feel comfortable sharing and expressing their gender identity and sexual orientation while on campus?

Caroline Krum: I think step one is getting rid of the binary gender system that the U has, which is not unique here. It’s something that’s very common at most college institutions. But people mentioned, like you said, specifically gendered bathrooms. And so a lot of queer students want to see not just resources for men or resources for women, but specifically resources for everyone, including queer students or people who don’t follow a gender binary. And we have a lot of things that follow this binary, like bathrooms or locker rooms or any kind of gendered spaces. And so leaving those gendered spaces, of course, because people like women may want a certain spot, but also making more spaces that are queer-friendly. Another idea that people had was pronouns and changing kind of the stigma about that – pronouns here operate very much in a like “you are what you look like” kind of way, and people just assume what your pronouns are based off of how you physically present, and so a lot of queer students want that to, they’re asked about when, even when you look like a certain gender identity that students will still make sure to have that instead of having to make a note like, oh, by the way, my pronouns are this and this, because that kind of makes them feel other. So basically making it the norm for students, that we should be more accepting that not everyone follows the gender binary, that there should be spaces for gender binaries, and that there shouldn’t be more opportunities for people to present that they do not follow a gender binary.

Emma Ratkovic: Can you explain the purpose of the LGBT resource center and the student events they host? Also, what is the LGBT Resource Center’s usage by students?

Caroline Krum: So in our survey, we found that out of queer students, actually only one of them hadn’t heard of the LGBTQ Resource Center, but most of them were completely familiar with it. But when it comes to actual use, it’s a it’s a very wide range. A lot of people have mentioned using it for printing things or for going for different events. The LGBTQ Center has different events that are like they have Fab Fridays, they have a Discord server, and like a virtual lounge, they have a Gay-la, which is like their gay prom, and Lavender Graduation, and other meetups that are like kind of come and go, but those ones are the ones that are consistent, and they focus a lot on acceptance for queer people at the U. It’s kind of like their whole mission is acceptance and building a community which is really nice because they focus on all different minority groups, right, different genders, different sexualities, and they offer like mental health resources, access, resources, tutoring, and so all kinds of things that a queer student may need at the U.

Emma Ratkovic: Super important. Where’s the LGBT Resource Center located?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, so it’s located in the Union, which is where a lot of the other resource centers are, and that’s in room 409. But yeah, students go there to learn how to change their identity on CIS, or on Canvas to figure out how to get access to scholarships because the U has a lot of scholarships specifically towards queer students, which is really nice. They also provide a map of gender-free bathrooms on campus. They give opportunities and how to find gender-inclusive housing, access to mental health resources and access to tutors, as well as promotion for other queer community events so people can stop in and go to that lounge in the Union to find out more specifics.

Emma Ratkovic: In certain organizations on campus, according to several students, are uneducated, often discriminatory, and harbor hostile feelings towards members of the LGBTQ community. A student cited the Young Americans for Freedom or YAF, Utah chapter, claiming that they’re homophobic and transphobic and that they instill a sense of fear in queer students. In April 2023, the group celebrated Pride Week at the U by hosting a watch party for an anti-trans movie. On Nov. 1, 2023, there was another screening of the same movie. Could you explain the YAF’s post-event backlash? And how did the U address the events that had occurred?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, so like you said, the first one was in April and that was met by with a protest by students and people openly calling out the transphobia. And at the time, what the U did was issued a statement from their diversity department that basically said, “We understand that these posters are transphobic, we understand that that’s offensive. However, offensive language is protected by the First Amendment.” And they kind of left it there. There weren’t really any sanctions, or if there were, it wasn’t made public. And nothing really happened until this happened again in November, again, like you mentioned, where they wanted to have another transphobic movie. This was also met with a protest, it was really publicized by Mecha, and so there was a really big turnout. And so a bunch of students came to protest, the event being held, especially since it was held by a registered student organization and held on campus. A lot of students felt like they didn’t want the name of their university being branded on events that were harming the trans community. And so yeah, so there were issues with this. They had again, put up posters, I think their posters said specifically, “the transgender movement harms women,” “the transgender movement harms children.” So we got a lot of backlash from students, but also a lot of support by the queer community, the LGBTQ Center, and also the Women’s Center put up posters saying like, the Women’s Center supports trans people, the LGBTQ Center supports trans people, right, like, openly came out and made it be known that they don’t support YAF’s message and that trans students still do and always have belonged here. There’s been a couple different protests since them and even at some of the Mecha protests, they have specifically said, like how trans students are here to stay. That’s one of the chants they’ve given. So the U, with this new one in November, same thing, came out with a statement last week basically saying, “Yes, this is offensive. However, First Amendment YAF has the right to free speech. And so they’re allowed to say these offensive things which isn’t agreed upon by the queer community, a lot of them feel like this is hate speech and hate speech isn’t protected. And by making these defamatory claims against the trans community, they should be reprimanded, but we are yet to see any reprimands against them.

Emma Ratkovic: Very interesting. LGBTQ+ individuals are excluded from more than only political organizations in Greek Life associations. Queer students claim that it is a problem in the classroom as well. Can you share the responses of students regarding this topic?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, so I have a couple of specific responses I wanted to read. So the first one, a student says, “I have a lot of concerns about the usage in respect of pronouns and transgender students. I also have a lot of concern about the general attitudes towards our queer students on campus”. And another student said, and they shared a more specific anecdote: “All examples presented in the classes I take at the School of Computing MSD program reinforce a gender binary and sexism. This is disheartening. There’s a lot of work to do. There are no female or non-binary identified faculty in the program I’m in. I think that there are specific staff and faculty on campus that make an effort to support LGBTQ students. But overall, I don’t think that they are widely supported and probably experienced burnout. In the current political climate, I fear for my own safety on campus.” And this is kind of something we saw in multiple responses, right, that they feel more widely accepted and supported in classes that are having to do with the humanities or liberal arts, but less so than other classes. In a third student response that I wanted to talk about. They said, “There’s such a resistance/disconnect with older individuals to respect pronouns and identity, especially on the medical campus. I also think Pride U flags need to be left up all year round. We aren’t queer during only one month, a year, it’s all day every day.” And so these are just a couple of examples. But basically, a lot of people have this experience where their professors in their classes that aren’t super young or super progressive or are in humanities or liberal arts aren’t as accepting. And they– they feel like they aren’t safe. They worry about discrimination, they worry about being able to correct a teacher. And so we’re seeing more students who are in these kinds of STEM classes feel like they cannot be as open as their sexuality as they could be in other classes on campus.

Emma Ratkovic: Relatively few LGBT respondents, just 6%, think that the U is doing enough to support members of their communities. What suggestions do they have to create a more welcoming atmosphere at the U?

Caroline Krum: Luckily, a lot of queer students came forward and gave us a ton of suggestions. And while it’s something that the Chrony could implement, it is a lot of things that the U themselves could implement. So one of those that people suggested was more diversity training. The U has some trainings mandatory for students about like sexual assault and drinking on campus. And so a lot of queer students suggested that they have one, specifically educating people on different pronouns and sexualities, and how to approach that they feel like that could really make a change when it comes to understanding and acceptance. Because if you think about people who are in the queer community, right, it all is kind of like the same group of people that don’t understand it, people that are older or conservative or don’t have a lot of queer friends. And so really focusing on that education standpoint, and making it more public of how it works, but then, also realizing that there aren’t just different sexual identities but also romantic ideas. That was something that I asked for feedback on the survey for students like “Hey, what would you like to see more of? What could be better about the survey?” And a lot of students said how people focus a lot on different sexualities, but not so much on different romantic identities. And that’s something I myself don’t really know much about, right? I feel like it’s not as publicized or talked about as sexual identities. And so they want the U to do a lot more there – recognizing all forms of identities. They also suggested better counseling for queer students. I know the LGBTQ Resource Center offers counseling, but the waitlists are super long, it’s super hard to get in with them. And so when queer students have a crisis, they can’t always just go down to the center and meet with a therapist or a counselor, right. And so they want more people brought on so that there’s more access so that students do have that available for whatever they need. And I think someone suggested was better advertising about events. A lot of people in the queer community unless they’re like, actively going to the LGBTQ Resource Center, either don’t know when things are happening, or don’t know how or don’t know anyone who’s going. And so they suggested, of course, always more activities, more community-based things, but also advertising this making sure it’s being sent out to everyone so that everyone has the chance to go. And with this, people suggested maybe a newsletter that specifically focuses on queer students, right, like a weekly thing saying, “Hey, here’s what’s happening in the queer community this week, we have this guest speaker, we have this event, we have this Fab Friday,” that way making it public and giving the opportunity for queer students to have a specific newsletters, a specific outreach that is targeted towards them and events that they would be interested in.

Emma Ratkovic: Perfect. In the meantime, what can current students and staff do now to create a safer and welcoming environment for queer communities at the U?

Caroline Krum: I think change really takes time. And I think it’s really hard to change institutions, especially education institutions, especially the U since it’s a public school and works off of state funding and state laws. And so I think the first step is really kind of focusing locally and small. So looking at what students and staff can do, and a lot of that is advocacy work, right? I think that students should be advocating for their queer counterparts. And that’s something we’ve been seeing a lot with this YAF backlash, right? We’ve seen a lot of students come out and say, “Hey, like, I’m not trans, but that’s transphobic. And that’s not okay. And I don’t want to see that on – on my campus.” And I think that’s a really good response. I think it’s really important that straight people will become allies, or any sort of heterosexual cis people act as allies, and build up their queer peers and make sure that they are standing up when there’s homophobia or transphobia, or anything happening. And I also think that staff can really do a lot right correcting people in the classroom, if they misgender a student, making sure to shut down any homophobia or transphobia. If there’s any takes that have to do with this or any discussions around gender or sexuality that –that staff can do a good job to educate and say, “Hey, that’s not okay,” standing up for employers, making sure they stand up with coworkers against bosses or managers when they – when they feel like they can’t express this. But most importantly, I think everyone needs to be focusing on instead of just making more queer spaces, making every space queer-safe, because queer students shouldn’t just feel welcome in their designated places like the LGBTQ Resource Center, but they should also be able to feel welcome wherever they go on campus.

Emma Ratkovic: Good point. And do you have any final thoughts or comments?

Caroline Krum: Yeah, my final thoughts with the story was really how it was really interesting to see how many concerns that queer students have. And I think it’s a good reflection of the student body at the U because something that’s important is that this is everyone’s battle, right? It’s not just queer students versus straight students, or queer students versus the U. It should be everyone, all students and staff and faculty united together as the body of the U. And I think everyone should work together to be rallying for support for the queer community, and making sure that the institution reflects the desires and the groups of our student peers. So making sure that there are queer people in offices of the U. There are queer faculty members, right? We had the one student mention specifically how in his school, there’s no non-binary or women, right, or non-binary faculty or women faculty, so making sure that we’re, we’re giving those spaces to people that can be represented and – and working as a whole to, to get everyone together.

Emma Ratkovic: I like that. All right. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the podcast, Caroline.

Caroline Krum: Thank you so much.

Emma Ratkovic: I’m Emma Ratkovic. And thank you for tuning in to this episode of Uncovered. Make sure to tune in to our future episodes.

Producer and Host: Emma Ratkovic [email protected] // @eratkovic_news

Guest: Caroline Krum [email protected] // @CarolineChrony